Agenda item

To consider the outcome of the review of the decision taken by Cabinet on 29 April 2025 relating to the Public Conveniences Savings Proposal which had been subject of a call-in and considered by Partnerships Scrutiny Committee on 22 May 2025.

RESOLVED that, by majority vote, Cabinet, having considered and taken into account the recommendation of Partnerships Scrutiny Committee, agrees to add 3 further recommendations to its decision made on the 29th April 2025:

 

(f)       that officers continue to have meaningful discussions with relevant City, Town and Community Councils and any other relevant third party on the options for keeping the public conveniences in question open and the outcomes of these discussions to be reported back to a future Scrutiny Committee and Cabinet meeting as soon as reasonably possible given the Council’s budget setting process for 2026/27;

 

(g)      that the recommendation made by Partnerships Scrutiny Committee to fund the public conveniences via an increase in Council Tax forms part of the Council’s annual budget setting process for 2026/27 and will take into account the outcome of the discussions referred to above, and

 

(h)      that the public conveniences in question will remain open until the discussions referred to in (f) and (g) above are concluded to the satisfaction of Cabinet.

Councillor Brian Jones, Vice Chair of Partnerships Scrutiny Committee presented the report detailing the findings and recommendation of the Scrutiny Committee held on 22 May 2025 following consideration of the call-in of the Cabinet decision taken on 29 April relating to the Public Conveniences Savings Proposal.

 

The report referenced the lengthy debate at the Scrutiny Committee meeting based on the grounds of the call-in.  Following consideration of all the views raised and questions answered during the discussion the Committee was in agreement with all the points raised within the Notice of Call-in.  In addition, members had concerns –

 

·       on the impact the proposed closure of toilets in popular visitor destinations, such as Dyserth, Rhuddlan and St. Asaph would have on the lives and well-being of local residents and communities

·       bearing in mind the conclusions of the Wellbeing Impact Assessment, the effect the decision to close the toilets would have on the Council’s reputation amongst residents, businesses and other stakeholders

·       on the impact the decision would have on staff working within the service and those staff who used the toilets when delivering vital services to residents

·       the frequency of communication with elected members and other stakeholders in relation to proposed service delivery changes, and

·       that silence on the consultation should not be taken as support of the proposals.

 

The Committee, in referring the decision back for review respectfully requested that Cabinet and officers made every effort to keep all communication channels open with City/Town/Community Councils, and all other stakeholders to ensure dignified access to all to quality public conveniences across the county were maintained.

 

Councillor Jones thanked Councillor Meryn Parry for his recommendation and acknowledgement of the cost implications in retaining toilets and meeting future needs and it was accepted that the figures may need to be revised in light of the budget process.  Consequently, Cabinet was asked to reconsider its decision to close existing Denbighshire County Council operated public conveniences, and instead retained these services by funding the required cost figure from a dedicated 0.27% increase in the Council Tax base for 2026/27.  This represented an average cost of no more than £4.38 per year per Band D household, which Partnerships Scrutiny Committee believed was a fair and proportionate investment in protecting health, dignity and accessibility for all residents and visitors across the county.

 

The Leader thanked Councillor Jones for reporting on the scrutiny debate and recommendation and thanked the Scrutiny Committee for their work.  The Leader asked Cabinet to focus debate on the Scrutiny Committee’s recommendation.

 

Main points of discussion focused on the following –

 

·       Councillor Julie Matthews referred to the minutes of the last meeting on this item, which linked in with section 4.8 of the report, when Cabinet had stressed the need to work to secure replacement provision/and or retain existing provision where possible through collaboration, recognising public conveniences remained an essential provision, and requested firmer proposals as to how provision would be protected, and she sought assurances as to how that work was progressing.  Officers advised there had been engagement with relevant City/Town/Community Councils including a joint discussion with St. Asaph, Dyserth and Rhuddlan with a view to finding a solution to keep toilets open in those areas which was ongoing.  However, discussions had been hampered by the call-in as officers awaited clarity on the Council’s position before re-engaging and continuing those discussions.  The Leader highlighted the vital importance of those discussions and negotiations and urged officers to proceed with those discussions without delay.  Cabinet also requested that all members be kept abreast of those discussions and negotiations

·       the Head of Finance and Audit provided some financial context highlighting the £11m budget gap forecast for 2026/27 based on a working assumption of Council Tax at 9% and cautioned against a piece meal approach on a service by service basis when setting the budget which should be considered as a whole taking into account the wider budget impacts with much work to be carried out in that regard prior to setting the budget in February 2026.  The report to Cabinet in April 2025 highlighted that further work was required to assess the budgetary implications of the investment proposed in the 11 facilities which was as yet unknown.  Therefore, it was too early in the budget setting process to quote average impacts on Council Tax of any decisions at this stage in the year.  The Leader accepted that it was too early in the budget process for a definitive decision to be made on the potential use of Council Tax to fund the service but felt a commitment could be given that it was an option for consideration as part of the overall process and within the gift of the Council.  It was confirmed that budget workshops would be scheduled for members as part of the budget setting process going forward as in previous years

·       Councillor Emrys Wynne highlighted the short timescale between the Scrutiny Committee and Cabinet meetings and felt it may be too early for a decision to be made suggesting the matter be paused pending further discussion and investigation into the implications of the scrutiny recommendation.  Councillor Rhys Thomas agreed some time needed to be taken for Cabinet to fully consider the implications.  The Leader responded that if the collaborative discussions proved fruitful there would be no need to raise Council Tax to fund the service and there was a need to continue with those negotiations. Councillor Barry Mellor agreed that those communication channels needed to be kept open highlighting the significant financial challenges facing the authority.

 

At this point the Leader opened up the debate to non-Cabinet members.

 

Councillor Merfyn Parry was pleased that dialogue with City/Town/Community councils would continue and elaborated on the reasoning behind the Scrutiny Committee’s recommendation that the decision be reversed with a credible alternative to fund the service if no other option was available.

 

Councillor Martyn Hogg highlighted his concerns on the disproportionate effect on rural communities if responsibility was passed onto City/Town/Community Councils with a resultant increase in their precept and he felt the implications had not been properly reflected in the Wellbeing Impact Assessment.  The Leader responded that a Council Tax increase would share the burden across the county, but it was important to discuss the options with local councils and it would be a matter for them to consider in terms of precepts. Toilets in Dyserth, Rhuddlan and St. Asaph had been included in the lottery funding application to upgrade facilities in the event they remained open which would need to be included as part of those negotiations.

 

The Head of Finance and Audit responded to a question and advised it was not possible to provide a definitive answer on the savings to be made which was dependent on a number of different factors.  The budget for public conveniences in 2024/25 was £272k when the decision was made by full Council to reduce it by £200k in order to set the budget for 2024/25.  The budgetary considerations were set out in the report to Cabinet in April 2025 including the investment in 11 facilities and whilst a figure of £150k was quoted it was very much a work in progress.  Consequently, the increase in Council Tax to fund the service was as yet unknown.

 

Having considered the report and recommendation from the Scrutiny Committee and the advice of the Head of Finance and Audit, the Leader proposed that Cabinet reaffirm its original decision but include additional commitments in relation to continuing discussions with the relevant City/Town/Community Councils and report back to Scrutiny and Cabinet on those discussions, and that the recommendation to increase Council Tax to fund public conveniences be considered as part of the annual budget setting process taking into account those ongoing discussions.  The Leader believed the proposal provided assurances regarding proactive negotiations to keep toilets open and consideration of financial models to fund them.  In response to a question from Councillor David Williams, and in order to provide further assurance, the Leader agreed to add to the proposition a commitment that public conveniences would remain open until those matters were concluded.

 

Overall, Cabinet considered the proposition to be an acceptable compromise.

 

During further debate Councillor Gwyneth Ellis highlighted the need for true collaboration and she felt funding costs via increasing the precept of local councils would be a regressive step.  The Leader felt it was important not to constrain those negotiations with local councils and it would be a matter for individual councils as to their precepts.  He also acknowledged the Governance and Audit Committee’s views in terms of considering Council Tax increases instead of cutting services.  Councillor Rhys Thomas referred to the appointment of a liaison officer to work to facilitate collaborative working between the county council and local councils.

 

Councillor Andrea Tomlin advised that the Scrutiny Committee had asked Cabinet to change its original decision based on the points raised in the Notice of Call-in relating to the Cabinet resolutions.  Consequently, she did not agree with the wording of the proposition to reconfirm the original decision and asked that it be recorded that Cabinet had changed its decision. The Leader replied that the scrutiny recommendation related to financing of the service and there had been much debate about funding and negotiations leading to his proposition.  The Chief Executive added that the issue for Cabinet was not the reasons for the call-in but the scrutiny recommendation as a result of the call-in. The proposition reflected that Cabinet had listened and made mitigation in light of the scrutiny recommendation.

 

The Leader restated his proposition for clarity, seconded by Councillor Julie Matthews.  Upon being put to the vote it was –

 

RESOLVED that, by majority vote, Cabinet, having considered and taken into account the recommendation of Partnerships Scrutiny Committee, agrees to add 3 further recommendations to its decision made on the 29th April 2025:

 

(f)       that officers continue to have meaningful discussions with relevant City, Town and Community Councils and any other relevant third party on the options for keeping the public conveniences in question open and the outcomes of these discussions to be reported back to a future Scrutiny Committee and Cabinet meeting as soon as reasonably possible given the Council’s budget setting process for 2026/27;

 

(g)      that the recommendation made by Partnerships Scrutiny Committee to fund the public conveniences via an increase in Council Tax forms part of the Council’s annual budget setting process for 2026/27 and will take into account the outcome of the discussions referred to above, and

 

(h)      that the public conveniences in question will remain open until the discussions referred to in (f) and (g) above are concluded to the satisfaction of Cabinet.

 

At this point (11.10am) the meeting adjourned for a refreshment break.