Agenda item

To consider a report by the Corporate Director: Economy & Environment (copy enclosed) which seeks the Committee’s observations of the report prior to any future Cabinet decision.

 

 

 

The Lead Member for Environment and Transport along with the Corporate Director: Economy and Environment introduced the report on Public Conveniences Savings Proposal (previously circulated).

 

The Lead Member reminded Members that this report formed part of the Council’s major savings plan. The report was with regards to the potential transfer or closure of the public toilets within Denbighshire.

 

The Corporate Director: Economy and Environment continued by introducing Paul Jackson, Head of Highways & Environmental Services and Hayley Jones, Principal Manager - Catering & Cleaning.

 

The report presented provided Members with the proposal to remove the budget from the pubic conveniences function and in doing so withdraw from operating pubic conveniences in the future. Members were reminded the proposal presented had always been included in the major savings ideas for 2024/25 budget and discussed in the budget workshops held over recent months. It had also been the subject of a specific Member workshop on the 24^th January 2024.

 

It was made clear to Members that no formal decision had reached on this proposal. The proposal would be subject to Cabinet decision, however as it has always formed part of the savings proposals for 2024/25 there was a clear expectation that this saving would be delivered. If the saving did not materialise, it would create an unplanned pressure for the authority to source from alternative areas of the council.

 

The final decision would be made by Cabinet, prior to the report being presented to Cabinet, Members heard appropriate scrutiny and consultation had to take place. This included corresponding with Members and City, Town and Community Councils to ascertain if there was any appetite for the provision to be taken over by City, Town and Community Councils.

 

Members heard there were two types of public toilets in Denbighshire, brick building facilities or pod facilities. The majority of the pod facilities were needing attention or replacing which would also cost the authority money. It was therefore mainly the toilet buildings that officers were looking at when discussing transfer of ownership. All options would be discussed and considered.

 

Members heard the intention was to relaunch the Community Toilet Scheme as a way of mitigating against the impact of any public toilets that’s do have to close. Details of which were included in the report.

 

It was stressed the service was a non-statutory service that the authority did not have to provide. The net budget taking income into consideration was around £270k. Members also heard there was often an over spend on this budget due to number of different reasons.

 

Responding to members queries, officers advised that: –

·       City, Town and Community Councils would be provided with information and facts and figures including costing levels when options were discussed with officers. Officers had been collating the data and information as it engaged with councils and would present all the findings to Cabinet once collected.

·       Members suggested that officers could look at alternative solutions such as keeping certain conveniences open in areas of higher tourism such as Rhyl and Llangollen.

·       It was stressed that officers did not find the decision to propose the closure of public conveniences easily. Numerous difficult decisions would have to be reached in order to balance the budget.

·       A needs analysis was currently being undertaken based on the population of every area and visitor numbers to determine how many toilets would be sufficient. That data would provide the information required to analyse how many Community Toilet Scheme / businesses would be required in an area. There was currently one business in Denbighshire that had signed up to the Community Toilet Scheme. It was stressed that priority was ascertaining how many public toilets could be transferred into the community.

·       Members reiterated the need to have more information and facts/ data to discuss the proposal in greater depth.   

·       It was highlighted that one of the Council’s core policy objectives was the promotion of tourism to grow the regional economy. Tourism played a vital part in Denbighshire’s economy with 6.03 million visitors in 2022. It was felt the impact of closing toilets in tourist areas would have a negative impact on businesses and the economy.

·       Members heard the toilet situated in Market Street in Llangollen generated an income of £171,396.61 in 2022/23 which equated to 43% of the total income from car parks with public conveniences. The public toilets were an essential support of tourism in the town.

·       If portable toilets were required as part of an event, it was the responsibility of the event organiser to make provision of such toilets available as part of their event management. 

·       Officers stated there was no increase in reporting of street fouling during the covid pandemic. There was no reported increase due to public toilets being closed during the pandemic period.

·       The plan for any toilet buildings that were closed would be bespoke to each particular build, including any alternative uses. The short-term position for many of the toilet buildings would be to lock the buildings up until a plan was known.

·       The Community Toilet Scheme was a Denbighshire County Council scheme which enabled the authority to shape what that scheme looked like in the future. Officers stated they could look into whether a City, Town or Community Council would be eligible for the £500 compensation. The terms and conditions of the asset that was transferred would have to be discussed during the transfer discussions. The revised scheme would be brought back to scrutiny for discussion when the review was completed.

·       Officers had looked at all avenues of potential savings including part year savings and reducing opening times. If that was a consideration it would reduce the amount of savings that would be made by the service. Officers confirmed further detail on the work explored would be included in the future report presented to Scrutiny.

·       The proposal formed part of the major savings proposal for the financial year 2024/25. It was already assumed prior to the additional ideas to balance the budget. The service had put forward £250k saving to retain a small percentage of the budget to remain for any ongoing costs.

·       Officers advised it was yet unknown whether the potential closures would cause or create any redundancies in the service, further detail and work would need to be undertaken before that could be provided to Members.

·       It was made clear that the toilets listed in appendix 3 did not generate any income. They were a cost to the authority for opening and closing etc.

·       Discussions with City, Town and Community Councils was due to commence imminently. The communication had been delayed due to ensuring the procedure followed a legal and proper course.

·       Members shared their concerns on the level of detail within the report and stressed the importance for further detail to be provided to Communities Scrutiny Committee prior to a report to Cabinet.

·       Members were informed the budget around public conveniences was £270k, the income generated by toilets was around £70k per year which was reinvested back into the service. The service often went over budget at around £30k per annum, thus officers had to source that additional cost from other budget streams in the service.

 

The Chair summarised some of the points raised during the discussion. He stressed Members requested a further report which provided the committee with greater detail including facts and figures in relation to asset transfer, Community Toilet Scheme information and suggestion of winter closure. It was reiterated that it was important to have all the information available before a final decision could be made. All Members were in agreement that a further report be presented to Communities Scrutiny at a future meeting.

 

Councillor Karen Edwards thanked Members and officers for the detailed discussion. She proposed the following:

 

Proposed that a further report be produced recognising that the budget for Public Conveniences should not be removed in its entirety and would identify -

a) The take-up of third-party management of toilets.

b) All costs of accommodation work prior to transfer, or decommissioning, and redundancies.

c) The on-going budget required to operate those toilets to be retained as essential tourist infrastructure.

d) Revenue costs for retained toilets to be supported by savings made in the Tourism marketing budget and a review of the charges made for the use of Public Conveniences.

 

Councillor Brian Jones proposed to accept the proposal stated by Councillor Edwards. Councillor James Elson seconded the recommendation.

 

Members sought clarity on what the Committee were being asked to vote on.

Councillor Alan James proposed that a further report be presented to the committee with the information as discussed during the debate to allow a deeper scrutiny of the service with the requested information. Councillor Jon Harland seconded the proposal.

 

Members of the Communities Scrutiny Committee voted for the proposal suggested by Councillor Alan James which resulted in a tied outcome. The Chair Councillor Huw Williams had the casting vote and supported the proposal by Councillor Alan James that a supplementary report be provided to the Communities Scrutiny Committee, detailing all the points raised by Members during the meeting’s discussion. The follow up report would be added to the forward work programme.

 

RESOLVED that the Communities Scrutiny Committee note the content of the report and request a further report providing greater detail on points raised during the discussion be presented back to Communities Scrutiny Committee prior to the report to Cabinet for decision.