Agenda and draft minutes

Agenda and draft minutes

Venue: Conference Room 1a, County Hall, Ruthin

No. Item




Apologies were received from Councillors Huw Jones (Chair) and Martyn Holland.



Members to declare any personal or prejudicial interests in any business identified to be considered at this meeting.


There were no interests declared.



Notice of items which, in the opinion of the Chair, should be considered at the meeting as a matter of urgency pursuant to Section 100B(4) of the Local Government Act 1972.


Due to the absence Councillor Huw Jones who was chair of the Performance Scrutiny Committee, Councillor Hugh Irving, the vice-chair, would chair the meeting. Members sent their sincerest best wishes to Councillor Jones for his continued recovery.



To receive the minutes of the Performance Scrutiny Committee meeting held on 31 July 2019 (copy enclosed)



The minutes of the Performance Scrutiny Committee meeting held 18 July 2019 (previously circulated) were submitted.


Accuracy – The Committee noted that The Corporate Director: Communities, Nicola Stubbins had been present at the meeting.


RESOLVED: - that the minutes of the Performance Scrutiny Committee meeting held on 18 July 2019 be received and approved as a correct record.


HAFAN DEG, RHYL pdf icon PDF 207 KB

To monitor the effectiveness of the transfer of the facility and services to an external provider and the impact of the transfer on services-users, staff, local residents and the local community (including lessons learnt from the process).

Additional documents:


The Lead Member for Wellbeing and Independence presented the report (previously circulated) with assistance from the Head of Community Support Services, Supporting People Internal Services Link Worker and Principal Manager – Support Services.


The management of Hafan Deg Day Centre had been outsourced to an external provider, KL Care. The report reviewed the transfer process and its impact on individuals.


The Committee heard that there had been no negative impact on the service users at all following the transfer. Initially there had been fewer service users than had been hoped, however that had helped smooth the transition process and numbers were improving.


Responding to reasons for the lower than anticipated users the Supporting People Internal Services Link Worker surmised:

·         advertising could have been better, that was now being addressed with the distribution of a new leaflet both internally and externally to the Authority;

·         the end of eligibility if a service user progressed into residential care;

·         reduction for the demand for traditional day care centres and

·         increase in alternative services/classes/groups provided in libraries and community centres.


The Committee were advised that:

·         there were currently nine clients using the Day Care Service;

·         GPs cannot refer individuals for day care but do refer them to the Community Resource Team for an assessment of needs;

·         focus was still very much on resilience and independence rather than day care;

·         Community Navigators signposted potentially lonely residents;

·         the centre was diversifying its use, including more activities such as coffee mornings and luncheon clubs for War Memorial Court residents, to increase business potential;

·         there was transport provision for service users and routes planned to avoid unnecessary waiting around;

·         the cost of a session (morning or afternoon) was £45 - £50 regardless of whether it was paid for by the Authority or privately (although there are no private clients) and

·         there was a cap on social care charges of £90 per week. Affordability is monitored and charges can be waived.


It was acknowledged that Denbighshire’s demography was changing and the Service evolving to accommodate it. The focus in future would be on the Community Centre model l, with a view to reducing the risk of social isolation.



Referring to the lessons learnt from the process (para. 4.6) Officers assured the Committee that the delay in the transfer of pensions from the Local Government Pension Scheme was merely an administrative problem, KL Care had been admitted to the Clwyd Pension Scheme Fund and staff would not be financially adversely affected.


Members welcomed the report and suggested that advertising the Community Centre facilities should be prioritised, specific mention was given to County Voice and GP surgeries. The Committee requested that an annual information report, including a possible presentation from KL Care be included in the Performance Scrutiny Committee forward work plan.



      I.        the Hafan Deg Day Care Centre, Transfer to Private Provider  report and associated Wellbeing Impact Assessment be received;

    II.        a further report be presented to the Committee in 12 months’ time reviewing the service provision and that the Well-being Impact Assessment document be reviewed ahead of that meeting.  Representatives from KL Care to be invited to that meeting to co-present the report.  



To consider a report by the Scrutiny Coordinator (copy enclosed) seeking a review of the committee’s forward work programme and updating members on relevant issues.

Additional documents:


The Scrutiny Co-ordinator (SC) introduced the report (previously circulated) seeking Members’ review of the Committee’s work programme and providing and update on relevant issues.


Provisional External Examinations and Teachers Assessments (para 4.8) – the item had been deferred to the Performance Scrutiny Committee’s meeting on 28th November, due to the delay in Welsh Government publishing the associated data.


November’s Performance Scrutiny Committee now had potentially 6 items on the agenda. It was suggested that the Committee consider running the committee over two sessions (morning and afternoon) to accommodate the full agenda. The Committee agreed to the all day meeting and requested that Lead Members be invited to attend for the items falling within their area of responsibility.


School Standards Monitoring Group (para 4.11) – Councillors Ellie Chard and Arwel Roberts were nominated to represent the Performance Scrutiny Committee on the SSMG.


The Group were advised that the process for Service Challenge had been streamlined reducing meetings requiring representative’s attendance to one per Service. A new service structure was expected to be released later that day. The SC would circulate a list of updated services to each Scrutiny Committee Chair requesting a nomination to appoint one to each.


The SC referred to appendix 2 of the report, the member proposal form for forward work programming and advised that completed forms would need submitting by 24th October to be considered by the Scrutiny Chairs and Vice-chairs Group on 31st October.


Members’ attention was drawn to the various reports attached for information purposes.


RESOLVED: - that subject to the above the Forward Work Programme be approved.



To receive any updates from Committee representatives on various Council Boards and Groups


There was no feedback to report.



To consider the company’s performance during 2018/19 and its Annual Plan for 2019/20.

Additional documents:



The Chair advised the next item of business contained confidential information and the Committee subsequently:


RESOLVED that under Section 100A of the Local Government Act 1972, the Press and Public be excluded from the meeting for the following item of business on the grounds that it would involve the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in Paragraph 14 of Part 4 of Schedule 12A of the Act.


The Lead Member for Wellbeing and Independence introduced the confidential report by the Cefndy Healthcare Commercial Service Manager and Operational Services Manager (previously circulated), which presented the Committee with information on Cefndy Healthcare’s performance during 2018-19 and current position in 2019-20.


Members were advised that the purpose of the business was “to provide meaningful well paid employment to disadvantaged members of the community”.  


The loss of the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) Transitional Employment Support Grant (TESG), previously known as The Work Choice Programme, in March 2021 was expected to have a detrimental affect financially on Cefndy Healthcare.  Income from this specific grant had been lower than anticipated during 2018/19 due to staff members in receipt of the grant leaving the organisation.  However there was no current proposal to alter the zero subsidy status from the Authority.


With a view to mitigating the risks associated with the loss of Department of Works and Pensions (DWP) funding the Council’s Community Support Services (CSS) had assumed the management of the Gwent Wide Integrated Community Equipment Services (GWICES), a social enterprise comprising five local authorities and the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board (ABUHB) in the Newport area, which operated on a similar basis to Cefndy Healthcare. 


By operating both enterprises the CSS could reduce unnecessary administration costs whilst expanding its product lines and potential to generate sufficient income to continue to provide valuable, meaningful, well-paid employment to disadvantaged individuals on a cost neutral basis.


Responding to members’ questions the Lead Member, Head of Community Support Services and Cefndy’s Commercial Services Manager:

  • described the competitive market within which Cefndy operated, in particular the difficulties encountered when competing against cheaper imports from developing economies across the world;
  • confirmed that Cefndy’s operating costs were slightly higher than a number of its competitors as its priority was to keep disadvantaged people in productive employment rather than claiming benefits;

·         advised that Cefndy Healthcare was a department within Community Support Services, consequently it was not permitted to make a significant profit nor apply for social enterprise funding/investment;

·         explained that they were actively looking for additional opportunities to mitigate the loss of the DWP funding, including potentially an alternative delivery model for the Service.  For this purpose a Project Team had been established to support the work;


·         estimated that 20 – 25 of Cefndy Healthcare employees were Denbighshire residents;

·         confirmed that all roles were evaluated and paid as per Denbighshire’s job evaluation scheme;

·         advised that disengaged and disabled children were welcome to undertake work experience provided there was no interference to the running of the business;

·         reported that Cefndy currently received a Transitional Employment Support Grant from the DWP but that programme would end on 31st March 2021;

·         confirmed that they were exploring the potential to undertake sub-contract manufacturing work i.e. providing powder coating processes for with external businesses etc. and

·         advised that alternative delivery models were being considered and would be reported to Scrutiny Committee in due course.


Committee members thanked the Commercial Service Manager and Operational Services Manager for their attendance and comprehensive responses. The Commercial Service Manager suggested that all county councillors should be invited to attend Cefndy Healthcare to see the  ...  view the full minutes text for item 8.